EPISODE #046: THE TRANSFORMATIVE ROLE OF DISCREPANCIES, VIDEO FEEDBACK & INFRASTRUCTURE IN INDIVIDUAL AND TEAM COACHING: INSIGHTS FROM 40 YEARS OF PRACTICEPODCAST SHOW NOTES - BARRY JENTZ
Barry Jentz, Owner & Partner at Learning & Leadership, Inc., Innovator, Author & Practitioner with 40+ Years Experience
#046 – The Transformative Role of Discrepancies, Video Feedback & Infrastructure on Leadership & Team Coaching: Insights From 40 Years of Practice
Join Dr. Krister Lowe and today’s show guest and pioneering innovator, consultant and coach–Barry Jentz–on this week’s episode of The Team Coaching Zone Podcast. Barry is an Owner and Partner at Learning & Leadership, Inc., and an innovator, author and practitioner in the area of leadership, team and organizational intervention. His career spans more than 40 years. Barry holds a BA in English from Kenyon College and a MA from the Harvard Graduate School of Education. Barry’s experience spans a range of industries and sectors including: newspaper publishing, media, finance, nuclear power, architectural design, construction, real estate development, international management consulting, engineering, and high tech start ups; as well as private schools and universities, community colleges, town governments, state education organizations, school boards/committees, public school professional organizations, non-profits, law firms, and doctors associations. He is the author of “Talk Sense: Communicating to Lead and Learn,” of “The EntryPlan Approach: How to Start a Leadership Position Successfully,” and “Leadership and Learning: Personal Change in a Professional Setting.” He has also pioneered a number of consulting and coaching methodologies.
In this episode of the podcast, Barry shares highlights from his 40 year career. Themes explored in the interview include: getting counseling as a prerequisite for consultants and coaches; Barry’s experience at NTL; the role of discrepancies and Barry’s video feedback model for coaching leaders and teams; psychological safety; the role of infrastructure in teaming; the Predict, Plan and Preclude framework; The PlayBook Offsite methodology; the Stop Start Continue team feedback model, using the MBTI and more. Barry also shares some great stories coaching leaders and teams in the education, nuclear power, and high rise construction industries.
This is yet another wonderful opportunity for team coaches to learn from another legend in the field. Barry drops a lot of value bombs in this episode and it is surely one you will not want to miss!
Resources Mentioned on the Show
- Talk Sense: Communicating to Lead and Learn by Barry Jentz available on Amazon
- EntryBook by Barry Jentz available at www.EntryBook.com
- Getting to Yes: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In by Roger Fisher and William Ury
Part 1 – Getting to Know the Leadership & Team Coach: Barry Jentz
- Owner and Partner at Learning & Leadership, Inc.
- An innovator, author, educator and practitioner in the area of leadership, team and organizational intervention.
- His career spans more than 40 years. Barry’s experience spans a range of industries and sectors including: newspaper publishing, media, finance, nuclear power, architectural design, construction, real estate development, international management consulting, engineering, and high tech start ups; as well as private schools and universities, community colleges, town governments, state education organizations, school boards/committees, public school professional organizations, non-profits, law firms, and doctors associations.
- Barry holds a BA in English from Kenyon College and a MA from the Harvard Graduate School of Education.
- He is the author of “Talk Sense: Communicating to Lead and Learn,” of “The EntryPlan Approach: How to Start a Leadership Position Successfully,” and “Leadership and Learning: Personal Change in a Professional Setting.” He has also pioneered a number of consulting and coaching methodologies.
- Story about the impact that his therapist Kiyo Morimoto had on him when he was 27 years old in Boston. Importance of getting therapy, counseling or coaching in order to become and effective instrument as an intervenor. Educating your emotions. Learning how to be a client. Barry’s role in walking executives into therapy for 40 years.
- Participated in National Training Laboratories conferences every summer. Barry was the youngest NTL participant. Co-facilitated sessions with Edgar Schein.
- Helping people be less ashamed when then cannot make sense of the world. All performance improvement problems don’t make sense to people. Need to help people learn to trust themselves in the moment when facing complexity. Being good company to oneself during times of complexity.
- Journey into working with leaders and teams:
- Has always been working with teams and understanding how to get teams to work together.
- At 24 took over an abandoned school and became the team leader
- Barry has a bias that its important to have been in a leadership position in order to coach someone who is in a leadership position
- As part of NTL he got jobs and started traveling for work
- From 1998 to 2008 worked with architectural design companies on high rises
Part 2 – Approaches to Leadership & Team Coaching & Stories from Practice
Discrepancies & Video Feedback
- Story of taking a golf lesson and using video to give feedback. When Barry looked at the tape he thought “That is not my swing!” But it was his swing. A discrepancy between image of self and reality.
- We say we are into collaboration but when you actually see what people are doing we are really into winning!
- How to encounter blindspots. We think we are doing one thing and we aren’t until we discover that we can’t make headway.
- Getting to Yes by Fisher and Ury about negotiating at the level of interests vs. positions
- Story of working for the Boston Globe and about turning down work when an executive and team were unwilling to be video taped.
- If a top person in the room won’t get on video tape, Barry won’t take the job.
- Barry invented a case, that has been used globally, and a video feedback methodology for surfacing discrepancies.
- A role play called “The Frank Case”. In the story Frank, a new team member, interrupts you the team leader at a team meeting. You don’t say anything during the meeting but later decide to engage Frank and provide the information about the interruptions. Barry then video tapes a brief role play of how one has the feedback conversation with Frank. The session can be as short as 8 seconds and as long as 3 minutes. Almost 10 out of 10 times people fail to provide the data about what happened in the meeting and what they do is problem-solve and come into the conversation and use various forms of tactics to straighten the other person out. Uses the video to help people see that they don’t listen. Illustrates that there is very little imagination and empathy out there. Few people have experienced “otherness” that they truly believe two people can experience ether same thing and have a different experience. If they haven’t encountered the discrepancies between how they think they show vs. how they actually show up, its hard to help people change and grow. How to structure an interaction that is mutual and not unilateral. When you put people under pressure, including so called professionals, we tend to be more unilateral than we think. Believe this work is essential in teams.
- Success story: at Harvard in Barry’s class, a student on full scholarship. Had turned around one of the worst 10 schools in New York City. Article in the Times about turning around the school. Also had a military background. Barry put the guy on video tape and what was revealed as that he was classically unilateral. When the man viewed the tape he saw the discrepancy between his self-image and how he actually behaved. The “Life Encounter” – a terrifying encounter with one’s discrepancy. Led to a shift in his leadership and has engaged his teachers and staff in Barry’s seminars (for 3 days) in order to grow in this area.
- Psychological Safety – when everyone on a team has been on tape, it becomes an initiation rite; the impact of intimate contact.
- Working with “mindset discovery” and then teach people skills that they thought they already had. People don’t really listen, give data, structure the interaction for one way vs. two way. Help people encounter it rather than tell them about it.
- Story of one of Barry’s students at Harvard who actually behaved differently in the Frank Case. It surprised Barry and when he dug into it he discovered that it was a learned skill. Barry found that only about 5 people in his history of teaching with more than 800 students could listen in a mutual way vs. a unilateral way. 3 of those who could were psychotherapists.
- Sports teams put people on tape all the time and practice a lot.
- Barry shares anecdotes of how well nuclear power teams work. Among the best trained teams because they do lots of drills and simulations and video taping. We don’t haven’t anything in leadership training in companies that even comes close to this.
Infrastructure in Teams
- Conducting needs assessment. Asking the simple question: “What is wrong with this place?” Simple question that led to a whole methodology that Barry developed.
- Architecture firm owner gave access to Barry to his team working on building a high rise. Gets all top leaders into the room. Asks them what is going to get screwed up in the pre-design phase. When he asked them one on one they told him and then he put the results into a feedback report. He then challenged them to leverage their collective intelligence and experience to address how they were going to work together in the upcoming phase in order to avoid those problems. Has the team work in groups with the data and identify the conditions and ways of working — the infrastructure that will help the group make decisions, schedule, coordinate, conflict management protocol,etc… Very pedestrian looking stuff. Would repeat this process at every phase of the process. Pre-design, Design, Build Phase, etc… Led to erecting building on time, within budget with less heartache than might otherwise have occurred.
- Predict Plan and Preclude Method: Works with top leader and organizes the top team into cross-functional teams and divide up the data and give each team a task to write up a problem statement and proposal around a concrete infrastructure area (e.g. decision making, conflict management, etc…) to then present to the group for adoption. Calls it The Play Book Offsite.” Everyone walks off with a play book for the next phase of work and everyone has signed off on it. Barry would then support the team in between the phases.
- Worked very well even with in sector that spits out touchy feely types of exercises.
- Applied this to 3 huge buildings in Manhattan
- Corroborating Barry’s work on infrastructure with some of the literature on structure in teams (e.g. Hackman and Wageman’s work on Leading Teams and Senior Leadership Teams)
Stop, Start, Continue Team Feedback Methodology
- Barry invented this simple yet powerful feedback methodology.
- What should we Stop doing, Start doing and Continue doing
- Integrated this into off-sites
- Also incorporated MBTI into the off-sites
Part 3 – Parting Advice & Recommended Resources
- Listeners can check out some of Barry’s books:
- Has some private papers on Predict, Plan & Preclude as well as Stop, Start & Continue
- Closing Quote: Kiyo Morimoto – From Kirkegard’s Journals 1864 about teaching and learning.